Bazid Khan: Welcome to the latest edition of the PCB podcast. I’m your host, Bazid Khan, and we’ve got two very special guests today — Pakistan Test captain Shan Masood and head coach Jason Gillespie.
Jason, let's start with you. The combination of the captain and coach is so essential in any sport, especially in cricket. What do you see as your relationship with Shan Masood going forward, and how do you plan to build on it?
Jason Gillespie: Well, I think it’s vitally important. Having only met Shan in the last couple of days, we’ve been communicating a lot over the phone, discussing our philosophies and how we see the Pakistan Test side going forward. There’s a lot of synergy, a lot of similar thoughts and ideas. I can see us applying the style of cricket we’d like to play going forward.
Shan spoke to the boys in detail last night about how he sees our team, areas for us to address and improve, which was fantastic. It was well-aligned, and we wanted input from the players as well.
As a coach, I didn’t want to come in and dictate how we have to play. It needed to be an inclusive process, which I think we are doing right now. It’s very heartening to listen to the boys chat. Shan’s been fantastic in communicating his thoughts, so everything’s very positive.
Bazid Khan: Shan, it’s a big change for you because Jason is just coming in fresh. It’s a new experience for him to come into the Pakistani culture. What feedback would you give to Jason, and what’s your philosophy as a captain going forward?
Shan Masood: I think we’re very lucky to have a coach who, as a player, has been there, done it all, and won it all. This is one thing —a great record as a coach and as a player. We used to watch that Australian team; they used to haunt us back in the day. They made us cry because we were little boys wanting Pakistan to win, and then Australia would beat Pakistan in crucial knockout games, with Jason being a part of them.
Having seen someone like that and following his record as a coach, I’ve been fortunate enough that over the last two years, I’ve been in a place where we share a common home away from home — Yorkshire. Jason is loved in that part of the world.
Bazid Khan: But he strategically left before you came, right?
Shan Masood: I’ve been fortunate over there even right now with Ottis (Gibson), but the stories we hear about Jason — he’s a bit of a hero over there. The players have nothing but positive things to say.
So, I think starting off on common ground helps. And then again, when he’s come here, we’ve connected. We’ve been speaking for a while now, a few months, and it feels like we’re on the same page. It’s an exciting chapter in Pakistan cricket where we’ve got two world-class coaches coming into our red-ball and white-ball setups, and we’re very excited about where they can take us with their experience as players and coaches.
I think it’s very important when your coaches are people who have gone through the process as players and have achieved top status.
Bazid Khan: Yeah, absolutely. Now the biggest factor nowadays is actually the scheduling — so much cricket being played, with players all around the world. How do you, as Test team captain, manage availability and rotation? How will communication go through to the players, especially those who play all three formats?
Shan Masood: I think the most exciting thing for us is that we're playing nine Test matches in the space of four or five months. That doesn’t usually happen in a year — a good year would be seven Test matches. There have been years where we only played five or six Test matches. So, playing nine Test matches in a row is something everyone’s looking forward to, with seven of them being at home.
Yes, there are certain all-format players, especially fast bowlers, where you have to manage their workload. Like with Shaheen Afridi in Australia — he played two Test matches on the bounce, and we had to rest him for the third one because there was a heavy schedule coming up for him. We’ll keep looking at that.
But the exciting part is that in our current squad, we’ve got six exciting fast bowlers. All six of them can make a claim for the playing XI, and all six offer something different. Wherever someone is required, and if it allows us to rest one of our premier bowlers, I think we’ll be in good stead, and it will give experience to the ones who play.
We’re equally confident that the ones who step in—the new guys like Khurram Shahzad, Mir Hamza, Muhammad Ali, and even Aamer Jamal to an extent — when they step in, whether Shaheen or Naseem Shah or another isn’t available, they all offer something that can win Pakistan games and pick those 20 crucial wickets.
Bazid Khan: We can touch upon those six fast bowlers in your squad and have a discussion on that later. But generally, Jason, with three formats, lots of leagues, and everything being cash-centered, how challenging is that? Does it affect the overall quality of Test match cricket? Can that be preserved, and is there space for Test match cricket amid all this cricket being played worldwide?
Jason Gillespie: Yeah, there’s certainly space for Test match cricket. And yes, there are challenges, no question. We want to find the balance between representing Pakistan and not denying players opportunities for experiences.
There are financial incentives for players to go and play overseas. I know there’s been a lot of media discussion recently about some decisions made by the PCB on player availability. Shan touched on it — there are nine Test matches in the next four months.
That’s just Test cricket. There’s domestic cricket, white-ball cricket in the 50-over and T20 formats, not just in Pakistan but all around the world.
We’ve got multi-format players, and we’ve got to look after them as best we can. The priority is representing Pakistan, but if there are opportunities — on a case-by-case basis — where a player can learn about their game and play better cricket, which in turn will help them be a better cricketer for Pakistan, then we’ll certainly consider those opportunities. But we won’t be in a position where we compromise the team, whichever format.
And yes, I’m aligned with the Test side, Gary’s with the white-ball formats, but this is where real communication — clear, consistent communication — between all the stakeholders comes in to get the best out of every individual player and do what’s best for Pakistan cricket.
Sometimes decisions will be made that may not be overly popular, but that’s why we’re in these positions — to make those calls. But please understand that they’re always in the best interests of Pakistan cricket and the individual players.
Bazid Khan: I promise Jason that I'd be kind. So, Shan, this question is for you. There’s a perception, not just a perception but a fact, that there's a widening gap between Australia, India, maybe New Zealand, and the rest in Test cricket. Pakistan hasn't won recently, especially at home. We haven't won a home series for quite a while now. Where do you think those teams are ahead of us, and how can we catch up? Why are they pulling ahead of us?
Shan Masood: I think you have to look at the big picture. I’ve been a part of that setup. When Misbah-ul-Haq and Younis Khan left Test cricket together, there was a time when we dominated teams in the UAE, and we did decently abroad as well. We always performed well in England, and we even held the number-one position in Test cricket for a while. The gap then was huge.
After that, we had a change of captains, but Test cricket wasn't as frequent for us. If you look at the big nations like Australia, India, and England, they play about 10 to 15 Test matches a year.
In Test cricket, which is the ultimate challenge in the game, you have to be familiar with certain conditions. Yes, we've been playing at home since 2019, but other teams have been playing on their home soils for much longer. We still have to decide what our best approach at home is.
If I’m being brutally honest, in home Test matches, because they’ve been played at different times of the year and against different nations, we still haven't found our ideal way of playing at home that suits our batting, bowling, and overall style. That's something we need to quickly figure out.
We need to determine what helps us win as a team. How can we create conditions that suit us more and put us in the driving seat, rather than just thinking about how we can cope with the opposition?
It's about familiarity, figuring things out, and consistency, which matters a lot in Test cricket. We're playing nine Test matches in four months, but we've also had to deal with an unfortunate calendar where we played in Australia, and then we’re playing our next Test after ten months. These are challenges that Pakistan cricket needs to address going forward.
We need more Test cricket. We play a lot of domestic cricket, so I don’t think we can blame that. We do play 10 first-class matches minimum, and with the introduction of departmental cricket, some players ended up playing 16-17 first-class matches in a year.
For me, it’s more about how we can get our team to play more Test matches. That comes down to scheduling, reducing the gaps, and ensuring we have consistent Test squads going forward. We also need to find a way to create a home fortress, like in Australia, India, and even New Zealand, where those teams are hard to beat at home. We want people to see Pakistan as a challenging destination.
Bazid Khan: Now, Jason, we touched upon this in one of your interviews where you said that Pakistan needs to find its identity in how they play cricket. Shan has beautifully put it, because whenever you go to other countries, you know what you're going to get. You go to India, and you know you’ll be challenged by spin. You go to New Zealand, and you know it’ll be seam.
When teams come to Pakistan, I don’t think we’ve figured out what our identity is yet. People ask me what the blueprint for Pakistan winning a Test match at home is. Is it fast bowling, spin, or reverse swing? But we haven’t found our way yet. England beat us here 3-0, they found a way, and we couldn’t. So, that identity crisis, if I may put it that way, is a problem. The sooner it's sorted, the better, because everyone here follows cricket and will start questioning after every Test match.
Jason Gillespie: That’s a good point you make. I think the identity will sort itself out. In this next period of time, seven Test matches out of nine are in Pakistan, which is fantastic.
I echo Shan’s sentiments — it would be great to play more Test cricket. The PCB is exploring ways to have more Shaheens games and four-day cricket to bridge the gap between domestic and international cricket. The Shaheens play a crucial role in Pakistan cricket. They offer exposure to young, talented cricketers and reward good-quality domestic performances. Finding that balance and testing players in different environments and against different oppositions will help them make the step up to international cricket.
As for identity and playing in Pakistan, there are varying surfaces and conditions depending on whether you’re in the north or south of the country. I don’t think that will be resolved right now. It will be a process to figure out exactly what surfaces we want to play on going forward.
But I firmly believe we’ve got all bases covered, whether it’s fast bowling, slower bowling, or playing on faster, bouncier tracks that offer more assistance to seamers, or surfaces that are lower and slower. We need to be flexible and adaptable, but we’ll certainly have a basic blueprint on how we want to play our games.
Bazid Khan: As Jason just touched upon the pitches, Pakistan recently hired a chief curator to make sure we get better pitches to play on. The pitches we played on last season were supposed to be slow, batting-friendly pitches that would work in Pakistan's favor, but they didn’t. My personal feeling is that Pakistan is a better side on pitches that offer a bit more than just flat tracks. Would you want to see bouncier pitches or surfaces where the ball comes onto the bat more, offering more support for your fast bowlers?
Shan Masood: Over the last four years, since I came back in 2019, we’ve toured SENA countries—South Africa, England, New Zealand, and Australia—and we just recently went to Australia. There’s enough evidence to show that there is a lack of experience in how to finish Test matches.
If you look at all those tours, sometimes the results are more flattering than the actual performances. We've been pretty competitive, especially with our bowling, and there have been a lot of positives in the batting as well.
In Australia this year, apart from Sydney, where conditions were different, Perth was a place where we maybe got the bowling wrong in the first innings. But after that, I think our response as a team was pretty good, especially at the MCG, where if we had held on to our catches, we could have won that Test match.
So, wherever there’s been help for the fast bowlers, I thought we bowled really well, and the batting stood out too.
The challenge now for the batting is that if we do play in such conditions, like when we go to South Africa, how can we convert those 50s into hundreds, and those 250-300 total scores into 350-400 if we're batting first?
Personally, I feel that we do play really well in challenging conditions. Pakistan have been very competitive in England against the Duke ball. We lost the Covid series, but before that, we drew every series. And even in the Covid series, that Manchester Test was one where we dominated for three and a half days, and Jos Buttler played something special at the end.
You can't just rely on one particular style because you’re going to play in conditions that require different skill sets, like reverse swing with spin. You still need to have a balanced squad. But looking at our last tour, we were pretty competitive in Australia. There are certain things we can do in the makeup of the 11 that can make us into a more well-rounded team. But I think squad-wise, we have enough in the tank to put a team out there in any conditions.
Bazid Khan: Squad-wise, you've selected only one specialist spinner in the squad. Is that something we should consider revisiting?
Jason Gillespie: You can look into whatever you want. But to start, I think we’ve got two special spinners. Salman Ali Agha is good enough to be classified as a specialist spinner. From what I've seen, he has a lot of potential with his off-spin. Abrar (Ahmed), obviously, is a fine young bowler in the early stages of his career.
So, I think we've covered a lot of bases. We have a lot of seam bowling options and spin bowling options. Our batting is varied as well. I believe we have all bases covered, and it’s a very exciting time for the Pakistan Test side.
Bazid Khan: On that note, you mentioned first-class cricket and the alignment of domestic cricket with the Shaheens and High Performance Centres. How important are these? Also, how do you start earmarking players?
Jason Gillespie: Regarding your question on the structure and development, I think the basic structures are in place. You mentioned the Shaheens. I touched on that before, and I’ll reiterate that the Shaheens are a really important part of the setup. Giving exposure in that space is crucial.
When it comes to earmarking players, the environment you want to create is essential. If you identify a player who might not have the results on the board at a lower level but shows potential that coaches, talent spotters, or selectors have seen, theShaheens are a great opportunity to give that player a stretch assignment. You want to see how they handle it and give them a chance in that environment. At the same time, you also want to reward domestic players who consistently perform, scoring runs and taking wickets, because everyone has aspirations of playing for Pakistan.
The Shaheens provide a platform for these players to showcase their skills and see if they have what it takes to play at the next level.
Bazid Khan: Consistency in selection has always been an issue in Pakistan. How can a captain address this, especially if a player the captain really wants is under pressure for not performing in several Tests? How do you ensure that the player remains in contention?
Shan Masood: I think selection is one of the hardest parts of the job, and I can imagine it’s the same for the coach and selectors. It’s not easy trimming down thousands of cricketers to just 17.
No decision will ever be perfect, but there should be a method and purpose behind it. The goal is to make Pakistan a strong Test team that can compete against top teams like Australia, England, and India, and play in the ICC World Test Championship finals.
Consistency is crucial, and it’s something Jason and I have touched on. There are many metrics or measures to consider.
You need to understand where the player is at and what the team requires. Sometimes a player might provide exactly what the team needs, but due to the unpredictable nature of the game, the results might not always be great.
From a coaching and captaincy perspective, you have to support those players who are committed to the team’s cause and purpose. I believe in a top-to-bottom structure where how you perform at the top impacts the players who follow.
One thing I really admire about England is not just Bazball but their approach to identifying a way of playing and then finding players domestically who fit that style. I would like to see a similar approach where we back players at the top level who align with the team’s blueprint and support them for as many games as needed, as long as they are putting in the right effort and have the right intentions.
Bazid Khan: Fear of failure is a significant issue, especially in our part of the world. The fear of not performing and being dropped can be overwhelming. How does a coach ensure they get the best out of players while following the team’s brief?
Jason Gillespie: That’s a great question. I echo Shan’s sentiments. If a player is fully committed and doing what is required from a team perspective, they will have our backing and support.
I’m a realist. There has been a lot of instability and turnover recently, both on and off the field. From a Test perspective, the selectors and I want to address this and ensure consistency and stability. If we can create an environment where everything off the field is stable, it gives players the best chance to know they are supported and trusted to perform.
As a coach, as long as players are committed, putting in the time and effort to improve, and are ready to perform for the team, they will have our full support. Yes, results matter, and I understand that as a coach, I am judged on them. However, I will support our players and our coaching staff to help the players be their best and create an environment where they can play with a clear mind.
Bazid Khan: How do you handle social media? From my experience, even with media stints, there are so many comments and backlash. For top-class players or those representing international teams, how is social media managed?
Jason Gillespie: For me, it’s simple—turn your phone off. If you don’t read it, it doesn’t matter.
I understand that in the digital age, players will see things, and family and friends might pass on information, which can be upsetting. But ultimately, we have to be mature enough to accept that there are things we cannot control.
If something is completely out of our control, like social media comments, it shouldn’t be a concern. It’s tough for players, and sometimes people create negativity for the sake of it. However, if we focus on controlling what we can—creating a supportive and safe environment in the dressing room—it helps mitigate some of the potential negativity.
Bazid Khan: The dressing room is a sacred place for players. We've had issues with private conversations leaking out, which makes the coach’s and team’s jobs more difficult. If you know exactly who the leaker is, what can be done?
Shan Masood: The dressing room culture is crucial, and everything starts from there. How you play on the field begins with the environment and conversations within the dressing room.
When you’re assigned captaincy, maintaining or creating a positive dressing room culture is a primary responsibility. Great sporting teams have strong dressing room cultures that contribute to their success. This includes everything from disciplines and routines to agreeing on how to play.
Addressing leaks and maintaining confidentiality in the dressing room are vital. It’s important to convince players of the significance of keeping the dressing room a sacred space. The betterment of everyone—whether coaches or players—starts with a strong, respectful dressing room culture.
Bazid Khan: There’s a term called an "impact player," referring to the impact of an innings or a spell. If someone scores a crucial 50 versus another player scoring a 70 in a less impactful situation, would you rate the 50 higher than the 70-80?
Jason Gillespie: It depends on the context of the game. Does it align with the game plan and strategy? If it does, then it’s a significant contribution.
We certainly don’t want players deviating from the game plan or strategy. I don’t expect us to face any issues in that regard.
Every contribution will be evaluated in isolation and valued. We appreciate everyone's efforts, though some contributions might be more visible, like hundreds or five-wicket hauls.
As a coach, I recognise that every little contribution count. For instance, a good spell into the breeze might help a teammate take a few wickets. It might be a crucial dive in the field that prevents runs and helps us get a wicket. It could be a significant period in the game where a player takes the initiative and drives the game forward.
These moments will be celebrated and acknowledged because that's what good teams do. Our goal is not just to be a good team but a great team. Yes, there will be a process to reach that point, but we will certainly celebrate all the little one percenters that contribute to the success of the Pakistan team.
Bazid Khan: Shifting gears, let's talk about the dynamics on the field. You know, Jason, off the field, you're a fantastic guy, very pleasant. But on the field, you were quite intense. During the Pakistan vs. Australia series, there was a lot of camaraderie, like when David Warner was bowled by Shaheen Afridi, and they shared a hug. Some people feel that this friendliness might have affected the intensity of the game. Do you agree with this perspective?
Shan Masood: I think there's uniqueness to every situation. In the past, there was a clear divide between opponents on the field, even if they were friends off the field. You saw hard-fought contests with fewer penalties for players.
Today, with franchise cricket and international interactions, players form friendships and bonds. There was indeed a lot of communication between the two teams during our series in Australia. However, once the bowler has the ball and the batter is facing it, or the fielder is taking a catch, everything else fades away.
The beauty of the game is how it connects people, how we learn from each other, and how we pick up skills from others. Test cricket, despite its challenges, needs these connections to grow and improve.
In those crucial moments when the game is on the line, players are fully focused. Friendly banter or even sledging can be part of the entertainment, but it’s about maintaining focus. Personally, I enjoy engaging in banter on the field, but I also respect when others prefer not to engage. It’s about finding what works best for each player.
Some players thrive on being calm, while others perform better when they're agitated. Understanding these dynamics helps manage how you interact with opponents. For instance, engaging with a focused batter might distract them and lead to mistakes.
The game has evolved, and while some players played it the hard way in the past, a lot has changed. Even teams like New Zealand, known for their friendliness, still win games. It’s not about being nice or unfriendly but about making the right decisions in crucial moments.
Bazid Khan: Looking ahead, Shan mentioned in a press conference that there are still places in the World Test Championship up for grabs. On 21 August, Pakistan will play Bangladesh. What can we expect from the Pakistan team? How will they approach Test cricket?
Jason Gillespie: You can expect a united group of players with big smiles on their faces, playing positive cricket. While I don’t want to give away too many details, I think you’ll see a team eager to make Pakistan supporters proud with their performance.
I believe players can be great role models, and their conduct on the field can inspire others. By playing hard, fair, and with genuine passion, players set an example. Young fans look up to them, and if they see their heroes giving their all, it’s inspiring.
We hope that the media will see a united team that is committed to playing their best cricket for Pakistan. Our goal is to play in a way that not only wins games but also puts smiles on people’s faces.
Bazid Khan: Shan, I can't let you go without asking about Arshad Nadeem. His achievements have created a wave of euphoria in Pakistan. What can we learn from his story, and does it add pressure on the team to maintain this momentum?
Shan Masood: Arshad Nadeem has made us all emotional. Seeing him on the podium waving the flag and ringing the Olympic bell was incredible. He deserves all the recognition he’s getting and is a national hero. His achievements highlight the talent in Pakistan, and we’re all proud of him.
Does it put pressure on the team? I don’t see it as pressure but as a privilege. Representing Pakistan is a huge honor, and every day we play is a privilege. We should feel extremely proud and grateful to represent our country. Arshad Nadeem’s success motivates us to seize our opportunity to do something good for Pakistan.
Starting from 21 August, we aim to play cricket that people in Pakistan and around the world enjoy watching. We want to be a team that win games and brings smiles to people’s faces.
Jason Gillespie: We would love to invite Arshad Nadeem to the dressing room as well. I saw all the Shaheens cheering him on during the Olympics. Having him visit and share his gold medal with the team would be a fantastic boost, especially with the Olympic spirit still in the air. As Shan said, it was a wonderful moment, and we extend an open invitation for him to visit the dressing room.
